A couple of days ago, a woman expecting a child posted a comment on the lengthy (and seemingly eternal) discussion between myself and a few others on the blog (see here for a start, and thanks for reading).
I think that Jen4 eloquently extends an argument against circumcision, and Jen’s authority is, when it boils down, that of a mother about to make that decision for her child.
A few comments in response follow her statement which appears her in toto:
I have read this entire thread. I am eight months pregnant with our son. I wish he was a daughter. Then we could have a baby naming celebration and celebrate birth without bloodletting. I am the child’s mother, I am the only person who is supposed to experience pain associated with childbirth.
My husband wants to circumcise our son so he will “look the same.” He is a secular Jew and could care less about having a ceremonial bris. But it matters whether his son will feel alien among other Jewish boys. Or whether he as a father will feel alienated from an uncut son. I can’t even begin to understand this and it is clearly a deeper irrational need than my husband can articulate.
He hated Hebrew school, is perfectly willing to forgo any religious approach in his daily life, he doesn’t keep kosher, he regards Shabbat dinner with relatives as an annoyance rather than a pleasure. But the most violent vestigial blood sacrifice of Judaism is the one he can’t question and can’t reject.
As my girlfriend says, “you just can’t question men and their penises.”
I agree with Alex and Tony.
I think there is no rational justification for consenting to my son’s circumcision. The medical benefits are vastly overstated. I am not concerned so much about the infintesimal risks, and I think my son will more likely than not be as accepting as circumcision as his dad– but I am deeply concerned about inflicting pain on a defenseless baby for no good reason other than cosmetics. (And yes, I have put my daughter through routine vaccinations and significantly more painful lead blood tests because these are medically warranted, and because vaccines strengthen (rather than weaken) an immune system against deadly diseases in most cases).
Joshua’s arguments are weak and unconvincing. Sorry, Josh, you put up a good effort but I think that your defense of routine infant circumsion is essentially: “Everybody’s doing it, you can’t stop it, therefore, everybody should continue doing it.”
It’s stupid, circular and irrational and I think Joshua just wants to have his own sons circumcized and be able to rationalize it as “AIDS prevention” as opposed to unthinkingly, witlessly, unquestioningly perpetuating a collective and sanctioned pattern of child abuse.
My husband wishes I would stop thinking about this issue. It is easier to circumcise your child when you don’t think and don’t ask questions, and don’t admit to or examine your true reasons and motivations.
He just wants his son to “look like him” and avoid bucking the group (cattle) mindset that advocates circumcision.
If your first impulse as a parent is to protect your child, than you have to stop thinking or asking questions in order to consent to routine circumcision.
I will not be signing any consent forms. However, I will not stand in the way of my husband’s circumcising our son because on a deep visceral level, I think I will be putting my marriage at stake if I do and otherwise, my husband has proven himself with his daughter to be a deeply caring and loving father & person with whom I want to maintain a good relationship.
That being said, I hope that in the excitement & confusion of my son’s delivery and birth, my husband develops a case of amnesia and forgets to request a circumcision. I certainly won’t be reminding him.
I have to say that it takes a lot of courage to express such a personal conflict, and I applaud you, Jen, on sharing this with the readership here. But I must take issue with something at play: There are two distinct issues here, the first being that of your love and respect of your husband as both a father and a companion, and the second your acceptance (albeit with disgust), of the status quo.
You’re right: fathering itself (support, both emotional and financial, etc) is gigantically more important than circumcision, but you are in a unique position to defend your child from the status quo. You’re reasonable enough to see the fatal flaw in circumcision, and it sounds like your husband has accepted this ritual (because that is exactly what it is: a dry husk that used to be a Jewish ritual), mainly because he’s worried that his dick won’t look like his son’s.
I suppose that all I can say in response is that I feel your pain (and moreso your child’s). No, I don’ t think you son will be forever scarred psychologically by the circumcision. He’ll probably forget the pain and brutality of the act quickly. But on the same token, I must ask of people who are intelligent as you: When will it end? If we’re intelligent enough to understand that it’s a medieval act of no consequence save some old tradition, then why can’t we–of all people–stop it in our own children?
I feel a bit sick with guilt for pushing you further on this, as I already admire you for your intelligence, reason, and bravery, and your consideration and compassion alone separate you from a lot of parents who just do this kind of stuff unthinkingly, and it seems like you and your husband have had some weird, important conversations about stuff like this, because you’re reasonable, loving people, who want to do best by their children.
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4 Comments
December 7, 2007 at 5:29 pm
For the past 24 hours, I’ve tried to think of a response that might help. I fear I’m stuck. Jen, your determination in the face of the worst situation impresses me. I know too many people who choose to stop caring when challenged. You’re trying to make the best of what you have.
My suggestion, offered with the realization that you’ve probably already tried this, is to push more on why your husband wants a symbol for his son for something that he’s willingly dropped. Is he facing any sort of pressure from his family? Is he just avoiding the requirement to abruptly reject it outright? Has he read websites that argue against ritual circumcision using a Jewish perspective?
More to the direct issue, has he watched videos of circumcision? Seen pictures of complications? Does he even acknowledge that it’s surgery? I’ve met too many parents who want to circumcise who reject any idea that circumcision is surgery. Has he thought about what he might say if your son is angered by his circumcision and wants to know why it happened?
As for what to do after your son is born, I’d continue to fight. But I say that knowing I’m not in your tough position. My girlfriend reached her own conclusion against circumcision before we met, so there’s no disagreement or tension. I can’t imagine what you feel. I’m sorry that you have to go through it when all you want is what’s best for your son.
December 18, 2007 at 6:18 am
There’s a really good video on my blog (link is in upper right corner) about Jewish circumcision, entitled “Cutting With Tradition”. You can also find it on YouTube. Very thought provoking!
This is also one of my favorite articles:
http://www.cirp.org/pages/cultural/kimmel1/
Jen
http://intactivist.wordpress.com/
Jen
December 29, 2007 at 8:24 am
Jen, your friend who counseled not to interfere with a man and his penis may be interested to hear from me, a cut man who, after learning what was taken, became endlessly sad – for about 8 years I hid the topic from myself. In other words, I repressed strong feelings of grief and loss. Maybe this, more than a simple bond between a man and his penis, could be involved with your husband’s strong devotion towards circumcision. I have read enormous amounts already on this topic, and have learned this – anatomical information clearly points to a highly errotogenic, protective and mutually (male and female) necessary structure for pleasurable sex, as is any man’s birthright. Bodily integrity is understood in the US, except where male genitals are concerned. This in my view and the view of others, including Ron Goldman, is due to deep cultural and personal repression and denial.
This is what may help to frame your husband’s behavior: If you could entertain the idea that circumcision represents one of the most serious traumatic experience in the neonatal period, that infants retain memories, that trauma has immediate and delayed-onset Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) symptoms as defined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV), it is possible, if not likely that your husband is experiencing denial as a way to protect himself from the experience of the overwhelming and unconscious pain of his circumcision. Some young boys have recalled their circumcision, and according to several counselors, thousands of men have relived their circumcisions in adulthood. Memories are rarely completely erased, rather they are lost or repressed.
I am so sad to have lost erogenous tissue I can never recover, and as an adult male, since learning about this issue, has left me feeling helpless, frustrated sexually, and deeply resentful, but of whom? My parents – the doctor? I don’t even know, except that I have deep rage over this issue that I am learning to tap in a safe environment. I plan on speaking publicly to expectant parents, but I’d rather not have been cut so I could be occupying my emotional landscape with other issues. It’s also humiliating, don’t you think, to send the message to the child that your genitals are not perfect as they are? Given the insanity, the social insanity as demonstrated by Joshua, who himself may be suffering from PTSD, I believe it essential to help our society advance forward on this topic, give it the air it needs to vent the stale, sick air, and hopefully we as a culture can recover and move forward towards a much more loving, trusting, nurturing birth experience as a way to welcome our children into the world. Out with the patriarchal medical model, with its insistence on episiotomies, forceps, and worse! In with the women-centric midwife wisdom again!
I completely understand your decision, while having some guilt about sharing this with you, thinking it may cause distress. I wonder if there is some way to approach your husband with information that’s close enough to his viewpoint to reach him, that will begin his thought process towards not circ’ing. If you are considering this issue any further, I wholeheartedly endorse a hero of mine, Ron Goldman, Ph.D, author of “Circumcision – The Hidden Trauma”. I’ve read it three times now; it will help inform me for my speaking. He also runs the Circumcision Resource Center in Boston – perhaps a phone call to them could help you in your dilemma as well. Also, I wonder if it’s not possible to ascertain your obstetrician’s stance on circ, let them know your thoughts, and even ask that them in advance to circ ‘loose’. By doing so, it could save more of the extremely sensitive frenulum, although any cut will necessarily amputate the erogenous ridged band area, unfortunately. I wish you the best for your son, and I apologize in advance if you read this and are disturbed by it. Talking to more people could help you, too.
Andre M.
January 27, 2008 at 12:15 pm
“But on the same token, I must ask of people who are intelligent as you: When will it end? If we’re intelligent enough to understand that it’s a medieval act of no consequence save some old tradition, then why can’t we–of all people–stop it in our own children?”
i feel the same way. i think that a mother with such intelligence needs to be the saving grace that KEEPS this type of thing from happening.
turning a blind eye to the wellbeing of your child is just not enough, in my opinion.
i realize that he is really pushing for it, but is his reason justified? i don’t think it is. and i don’t think its the responsibility of a wife/partner to blindly go along with what their significant other decides.
the reason why your opinion holds more weight is because your decision is to leave it alone, to not do anything, to give the choice to the individual owning the penis.. whereas his choice is to inflict his will on his new child by forcibly removing part of his body for ever.
i don’t think its okay to let this happen, once you understand that! i mean, i can forgive someone who made the mistake of allowing it because they were naive.. but if your informed.. how can let it happen?